MINUTES OF THE PUBLIC MEETING RE PENTWYN SCHOOL

Held on 30 April at 7.00pm in the Village Hall, Clyro
 
Present:  Panel Members – Cllr B Morgan, Reverend H Baker, Mrs M Watkins, PC Fean Thomas, County Cllr M Morris, Cllr D Hood, Mr D Davidson, Mr C Robinson, Mr R Greenwell.
 
Ms J Thompson, Clerk to Clyro Community Council
 
Members of the public – 65 people attended
 
Cllr B Morgan (Chairman) advised those in attendance of the fire procedures for the evening, including evacuation details.  Names of all those present were taken on arrival.
 
He went on to  explain the ground rules for the public participation which were that there should be no personal attacks and that no other issues would be discussed other than those relating to Pentwyn School.
 
He then introduced the panel members and invited the Hillcrest Team to outline Hillcrest’s operation nationally and in particular Hillcrest Pentwyn.
 
Mr David Davidson gave the background on Pentwyn which was set up in March 1982 and 26 years later was taken over by Hillcrest in 2000.  The young people came from all over Wales and England following social services and education departments.  They came from emotionally and behaviourally disadvantaged backgrounds, often suffering emotional, physical and sexual abuse.  None of the youngsters came from Powys.  Powys young people go to other counties.  The boys are unable to maintain a stable environment in their home towns.  He would welcome questions.
 
The Chairman then introduced Mr Nick Bourne.
 
He thanked everyone for attending and apologised for having to leave early. He had attended a meeting with Maris and other residents to discuss some of these issues. There were one or two issues in particular that he had written to Hillcrest about, which could be covered at a later point in the meeting.  He had also got the latest Estyn report and CSSIW report.  He had also written to object to planning permission for the extension of Hillcrest, which was not appropriate.  He stated that everyone understood that there were emotional and behavioural problems with the residents of Pentwyn, but it was a lot for this small community to deal with. He had been to see the police today, and there were policing issues, a lot of police time was spent searching for boys who had absconded, which took them away from other areas of police work. The bulk of work related to problems with Hillcrest.  He asked that as a private company with a profitability issue, was there any chance of investing in CCTV, and putting back something into the community.  These sort of things need to be addressed and he asked for a little bit more of the background on Hillcrest. It was important that this sort of meeting must be held on a community basis where people are frank with each other.  Clyro residents had been very reasonable about Hillcrest up until now.  Now 2 youngsters from Pentwyn had been charged with the damage and burglary, which had been carried out at the local church. There had also been incidents of boys from Pentwyn running through people’s gardens and frightening children. There were also other issues which hadn’t been touched on.  Surely following this, in what circumstances did Hillcrest feel it was right to apply for planning permission? 
 
The Chairman asked Mr Richard Greenwell if he would reply on behalf of Pentwyn.
 
Mr Greenwell stated that Hillcrest was a private company set up in 1994; it was a national company and this only facility in Wales.  It had 10 children’s homes 6 EBD schools (Educational Behavioural Difficulties), a large fostering agency and has several facilities for people with learning disabilities.
 
In the past local authorities provided care homes etc. to cater for their needs; what we’ve seen over the last 20 years is that this has been outsourced to the private sectors.  Local Authorities are not running their own facilities and are handing over to specialised organisations like Hillcrest.  They are very heavily regulated in Pentwyn and have 2 regulatory bodies ESTYN and CSSIW.  That’s the background to Hillcrest.  In relation to planning – we are seeking planning permission for a classroom block and a residential block.  However it is not the intention to build.  At the moment there 7 young people in residence and there are the facilities to hold 15.  On some of their other sites they do have planning, but do not usually build on them.
At this point Mr Nick Bourne asked why they were applying for planning permission when there wasn’t any intention to build, felt this was a very unlikely situation.
 
Also what was being done to protect the community?
 
Mr Greenwell replied that in relation to CCTV, it was not allowed as it was seen as too intrusive.  He also emphasised that this was not a secure unit and that they couldn’t confine the children in any way.  He felt that they had adequate staff.  He pointed out that the ringleader of the boys plus one other who had been causing the trouble had been expelled.  That’s the action they had taken to protect the community and he didn’t think there was anymore that they could do.
 
At this point the Chairman asked PC Thomas if he would like to speak.  He stated that from a policing point of view they had a good working relationship with Pentwyn.   There had been peaks and troughs over the years usually with a change of pupils at the school.  It took a while for the children to settle in and get used to each other.  Sometimes some children went off the rails but there was good work being done to try to stop this.  Staff worked hard to alter their behaviour.  It was important to try to have a balanced perspective.  He agreed that there were issues for the police in relation to crime and absconding children but historically the actual local crime had been fairly minimal.  The young people were not going out on a regular basis causing trouble.  The latest incidents had happened in a short space of time.  They were troubled children who were not in a secure unit, but a school with children with emotional problems, where staff were trying to break them from a cycle and alter their behaviour.  However it does cause the police extra work.
 
The Chairman asked if anyone else would like to comment.  The Reverend Heather Baker stated that because of the desecration of the parish church and the nature of it, she felt she spoke for everyone involved with the church, in expressing the hope that out of the event that closed the church something good would come out of it.  A service had been held whereby the children had been prayed for and it was hoped that they would learn to value things.  However, she stated that the people of Clyro had a right to live without the fear, the inconvenience and the need for extra security.  What had happened at the church had been the focal point in creating the set up for this meeting to take place and she hoped that something good would come out of it for the community.
 
The Chairman then invited County Councillor Margaret Morris to speak.  Cllr Morris informed the meeting that she hoped that tonight we could start to look forward and get some balance back into the situation. The situation had been fine for many years but that it was not right for people to be living in fear and having to prevent small children from playing outside.  People are scared at night with flashlights in the brook.  She hoped that there could now be a practical solution and help for the community.  The community were more than halfway there in helping with this.
 
The Chairman then invited questions from the panel.
 
The Reverend Baker’s question was directed at all 3 representatives of Hillcrest Pentwyn.  Since the desecration of the church on Easter Sunday, which was 23 March, on police advice, we have had to keep the church locked. After the TV coverage she had received a letter which had also gone to the Chairman, asking for a public meeting.  The letter had stated that she would be kept informed of when the boys had been moved out of the area, and yet she had heard nothing of this.   This had deprived visitors and villagers from using the church as it was intended and has resulted in the loss of income from such visits which, whilst we dislike having to regard it, are very necessary to the financial well being.  It seemed that no consideration was given to the community and there needed to be more evidence of this.

Mr Davidson apologised that Reverend Baker had not received a letter.  He stated it was unforgivable.  A decision had been made quite quickly to move the child and they had given his home local authority notice of 28 days.  The other child involved was moved on by Social Services and police and a secure warrant had been taken out and he had been moved immediately. He apologised once again stating that he thought a letter had been sent.
 
The Chairman stated that in future perhaps a phone call or email could be sent.
 
Reverend Baker stated that she felt cynical about some statements made in a letter from Hillcrest.  She had received the first 2 letters but not the 3 ^rd informing her that the boy had left the area.  The church could have been opened sooner.
 
The second question was from Maris Watkins.  Do you believe that Pentwyn, given its setting in close proximity to a busy road and residential housing is the appropriate place to educate ‘persistent absconders’ and pupils who demonstrate ‘aggressive behaviour’?
 
Mr Davidson stated that for a period of time there had been persistent absconders but this had gone down over the last 2 weeks.  There was a long time when there weren’t many.  As for the busy main road there’s no good place to put a school.  It had been there for 26 years.  He agreed that over a period there had been some behaviour which was extraordinary, but the children were no different but their behaviour had been different, and they had taken strong action to deal with the 2 boys who had caused the recent problems.
 
Maris replied to this.  She hoped she was reflecting the views of the community.  She felt that as a result of recent events they were justified in asking these questions.  The school was too close to a busy road and too close to residential properties to serve the needs of the pupils. The road was actually a challenge for the absconders. She stated that Pentwyn in their planning application wanted to narrow the road, which would result in a bottleneck and increase problems for a large number of agricultural vehicles.  It would also draw attention to the fact that Pentwyn is an institution and not a country residence.  It’s also contrary to the guidelines in the Clyro Community Design Statement.  Why should a small Radnorshire area be urbanised to suit? Very tolerant householders living nearby are unhappily subjected to episodes of anti-social behaviour and verbal abuse. This can only get worse as the government seeks to accommodate pupils with more severe needs than was the case, when the school first opened.  The visual intrusion to the properties on both sides of the road is unacceptable and she hoped that the regulatory authorities would have some input in this area.  The stream running through Pentwyn is still causing concern, and was mentioned in the 2002 Estyn Inspection report, as this was the route whereby some of the children absconded.  Also the use of colourful language heard in the vicinity is getting worse.
 
The Chairman then raised the third question.   Recently, both elderly and younger members of our community have felt frightened and intimidated by some of your pupils, what steps are you taking to ensure that this doesn’t happen in the future?
 
Mr Carl Robinson replied.  He referred to the revision of the admission policy and staff that supervise children quite closely.  There are parts of the regulator’s review that states that if we physically stop the children leaving it could be deemed as assault.
However if it is felt that they are vulnerable, they will stop them leaving as this is seen as a duty of care. 
 
They could look at what could be done with the stream, and what alterations could be made.
 
In relation to damage, they check the fences at night and that there are no children around there.  They have recently undertaken behaviour management training.  Try to reward children for behaving.  Can guarantee we are trying their level best.  It does come in peaks and troughs and depends on type of children there at a particular time.  They understand why people feel as they do.

Question 5 was asked by Mr David Hood. With regards to your staffing are your staff qualified? Referring to your paperwork you have some RCWs (residential care workers) with 4, 7, and 18 months experience, is this the sort of school these staff should be at to gain experience, you also seem to have a high turnover of staff, any idea why this should be?
 
Mr Davidson replied.  He agreed that there were some less experienced staff at Pentwyn but there were also some who had been there for a number of years.  It was the nature of the job that staff moved on for perhaps more money or a range of other reasons.
 
As to the experience of staff, they had to gain this somewhere.  They could work towards a qualification if they don’t have one, possibly NVQ3 in Care.
 
Mr Hood felt that to gain the trust of the children surely staff should be there longer.  How could the children get to know and trust the staff when there was such a high turnover?
 
Mr Davidson explained that some staff had been there for years.
 
Question 6 was asked by Mrs Maris Watkins.  Could you make available, an updated list of your staffing structure, including the qualifications and experience of each member of staff?
 
It was stated that 3 posts that had been advertised had now been taken up and the posts filled.
 
Question 7 was asked by Mrs Maris Watkins.  Can you give us evidence of how you have attempted to sustain links with the local community since your last full Inspection in 2002?
 
No sustained links existed.  Mr Richard Greenwell agreed that there should be regular meetings between members of the parish and the school, especially following recent events.  It had been suggested that these meetings be held on a previous occasion, but as there had been no major incidents over 4 years this had not been done.  Mr David Hood suggested that a representative could attend the Community Council Meetings.  This was agreed.
 
Question 8 was asked by Mrs Maris Watkins.  Why on your website is Pentwyn based in Herefordshire, when in fact it is Powys, does that affect statistics?
 
It was stated that this was not the case, and that they went by the postcode.
 
Question 9 was asked by Cllr David Hood.  How can you ensure that members of the public, including young children, would be free to utilise the public footpath that runs through the grounds of Pentwyn, without being approached by the pupils and subjected to verbal abuse?
 
Mr Davidson replied that they shouldn’t be subjected to verbal abuse and that it had never been reported to him.  He couldn’t act unless he knew of the problems. This type of thing should be reported to staff in the office.
 
Question 10 was asked by Cllr David Hood.  Has Hillcrest Pentwyn ever operated to full pupil capacity? No! They couldn’t see into the future but very unlikely.
 
Question 11 was asked by the Chairman. Why do you need another building when there are not enough pupils to fill existing buildings? Mr Davidson replied it’s unlikely to ever be full, as full numbers are 15 and it’s unlikely that there would ever be 15 boys at any one time.  To some extent it’s a transient population, some boys come for short period of time and the authorities decide, for whatever reason, that it is time for them to go back to that local authority.  The maximum number of boys at Pentwyn in the last four years was 11. 

Question 12 was asked by the Chairman. In view of the very real concerns raised by recent Pentwyn related incidents in the village, and the seemingly impossible task of containing pupils, surely the submission of yet another planning application is one step too far?
Mr Richard Greenwell replied that there were no plans to build, the planning application is a commercial decision, the school could become a commercial training centre, or a day boarding school, it gives extra options and adds value to the site. Planning permission had been turned down once or twice and we would have to comply with the requirements of the local plan, we did not apply to have the road narrowed.  We applied for some classrooms and a residential block built but the planners and highways authorities influence the effect it has on the road.

Input from Bryn Williams - Bryn Williams is the Chief Officer for the Community Health Council for Brecon and Radnor.
Bryn reminisced, 17 or 18 years ago Bryn and Pat had looked for somewhere to live when he moved to his job in Brecon, they’d found the ideal spot in Kilvert’s Clyro. They were able to wander the rights of way and woods in those days. Pentwyn only had a few lads, who had some emotional problems. These were well managed and formed an acceptable part of our society, I felt quite comfortable with the establishment just across the road from us. Subsequently the place was sold to Hillcrest and matters started to go downhill almost immediately. We kept patient and were tolerant of the situation, hoping that things would change for the better, but it never did, it got worse. We, along with others distanced ourselves away from any contact.  But that was not enough however and soon a stream of abuse was directed across the road at us, as soon as we ventured outside.
Eventually an application was made to extend the service at the school. At a public meeting assurances were given to the community at that time that there would be no further applications to extend, and the population accepted the plan.
It was stated at that time, that the home would be very selective of the type of young man they would be taking into the school, I’m sure some of you here this evening will remember that promise.  What have we seen consequently, vandalism in the community, desecration of the church, verbal abuse that we receive, the stripping of the roof and throwing roof tiles at people, police officers in attendance regularly, sometimes the situation seems like an excerpt from the Marx Brothers, with boys running around in circles, with staff following in distant pursuit.
This happens constantly because it gets worse with boys running through gardens and vandalising property, I think there is a hidden agenda, what does the future hold, are we likely to see another Usk open prison there? The prospects are frightening; frightening from the breakup of Kilvert’s village life, and with the breakdown of the social fabric of this community and of Clyro.  This lovely village is breaking apart and becoming a Garrison Town for anti-social incomers. Frightening for each and every individual who is frightened to venture out of doors, the old, the young, the most vulnerable in society.  Quoting from the statement of purpose and function for Pentwyn, it says service provision is for those with a background of 1. criminal activity, 2. inappropriate sexual behaviour, 3. those moving out of secure units, with some needing electronic tagging.

The Chairman then invited County Councillor Morris to give an update on the planning application. 
She said that she remembered Pentwyn previously stating that there would be no further planning applications, and her trust had now gone in what they were saying. You are seeing this as a corporate business and you cannot now blame us if we activate all we have, and we fight for this application not to go ahead.  90% of planning applications are now decided by planning officers, and they no longer come to the planning committee.  This is national government legislation, but if the local member wishes the application to come in front of the planning committee, she or he has the right to ask for it to be so.  I have done that; the planning application won’t be dealt with quite yet, it seems to have been around a long time, but because of the elections and new people coming on to the council it’ll take some time before the application is heard.  The community council, objectors, and other consultees can give their opinion.  We are ready to fight our corner if that is wanted by the majority of people in Clyro.  And she will be the person to speak on our behalf and represent us; someone has put part of the drawings for the new building at Pentwyn on Powys County Council highways.

Richards Greenwell spoke at this point. He said that Hillcrest was run by a board and he was just an employee like his colleagues and that given the passion that had been said this evening he would go back to the board whose next meeting is on the 22 ^nd of May, and he would be recommending to the board that we withdraw the planning application, given the strength of feeling that is coming across tonight. He doesn’t have the authority to withdraw the application but he would recommend it, and David Davidson would inform us of the decision of the board following that recommendation.  The events of the last few weeks had clearly created a depth and strength of feeling that he hadn’t appreciated.  He would be quite happy to come back in a month’s time, should the board ignore his recommendation, the Chairman said that at least this would be a start, should the board withdraw the planning application. 
The Chairman then invited members of the audience to ask any questions they may have in relation to Pentwyn.

Rhona Muirhead.  She stated that she was sure there was no animosity towards teachers or children. In fact she admired these people who look after these children who are so damaged.   The school was normally well run.  She laid the blame on Hillcrest, who had created business tactics and changed the whole attitude in the village.  Please teachers don’t think we don’t applaud what you do, but she was very concerned about children and current staffing levels.  Would it be possible to go back into public records and find out what the staffing bills used to be?  The scale definitely now seemed wrong.  She also stated that she couldn’t imagine how anybody could be so cynical, that they could stand up and state that the planning application was purely for business purposes and profit. Most extraordinary move.  As far as the teachers are concerned we applaud and support you but please keep the scale right.

Mr Davidson replied that the staffing levels were as they should be as defined in the guidelines. Have staff for 11.

Rhona Muirhead stated that she found it hard to believe that Hillcrest was allowing them to pay for 11 staff when there were only 7 boys on site.

Mr Davidson informed the meeting that it took many months to get new staff and that they do have more staff than required as it took about 3 months to employ a staff member.

The Chairman then invited more questions from the audience.

Ellie Thorneycroft stated that she thought the teachers did a fantastic job and that she had not had one bad experience with the boys. Surely it would be more beneficial if they were more integrated with the community.  The fear of the unknown would then be removed.  Perhaps it would be possible to offer work placements for the boys.

Mr Davidson replied that the boys were actively engaged in work experience.
Why then, was it asked that they did not seem to be employed in Clyro?  They could work on farms and in the surrounding areas.  There was a lot of trust with a lot of the boys who don’t create problems.  Closer links with the community were needed.

Cllr Hood stated that representatives from Hillcrest would be very welcome at Clyro Community Council meetings.  Also work placements could be offered to the boys.

Mr Ken Jones asked if it was a no smoking school. 

Yes it was for the staff, they were not allowed to smoke on site.  There was a designated cigarette bin on the side of the building, at the front of the school. Because of new legislation, staff couldn’t smoke on site.

Ros Coles said that she agreed with what had been said.  The children never used to be a problem, there seemed to be a problem now with the selection of pupils. A number coming to Pentwyn now do seem to have much more serious problems.

Mr Andrew Williams then spoke.  He said he had just moved to the area and could see both sides.  At the moment Pentwyn was not involved with the community, an effort was needed to overcome this.  Withdrawal of the planning application must happen or relationships between the community and Pentwyn would be irretrievably affected.  In relation to CCTV it was his understanding that this could be used at entrance/exits.

Mrs Meriel Morgan stated that she had been a secretary at the school for 2 ½ years and wondered just how honest were Social Workers when they were desperate to place these boys at Pentwyn.

Mr Davidson replied that they tried to get all possible information from social workers etc, he would not like to think that they were being lied to.  There were many different agencies involved now, not just social workers.

Joan Russell – She expressed concerns about fences that had been damaged and needed repairing, she had heard the boys running around her garden at 10-30 at night..  She asked whether Pentwyn would replace the fence.

Mr Davidson said the fence would be repaired.

Joan Russell –She asked what is the top age of the boys that you are prepared to take now?

Mr Davidson replied that the top age of a boy would be 15, as it’s a school they wouldn’t take over year 11.

Roger Phillips – It appeared that the planning application wasn’t put in for to benefit the school but to increase value of property.  It was good to hear now that the request for the planning application was to be withdrawn.

Ann Wheatcroft – She had listened to both sides and thought that Pentwyn was utterly the wrong place for these children.  She expressed her concerns about the lack of playing fields at Pentwyn for the boys to run off their energies. They come from urban areas and are not used to the countryside. All they want is to go back to their own environment. She felt sorry for the boys.

The Chairman then asked PC Thomas to comment. 
He admitted that there had been a big increase this year in children absconding and he had asked for action to be taken.  What had been seen this year had been unprecedented?  There had been 40 abscontions so far.  However, there had been one key lad, who was an older resident who didn’t want to be there, who caused a disturbance and instigated others to run off as well.  Staff were trying to cope with 5 youngsters trying to leave, when they can’t physically hold them.  Yes, there had been dogs, cars, helicopters etc, not because of the risk to the community but because the police have protocols and policies which must be followed. Staff have actively been looking for them and as a last resort call the police, who try to find them very quickly.  Some do cause mischief but others just want to leave.  The resources used to find these children are used to try to stop children being at risk.  Young people are classed as vulnerable.

Rhona Muirhead’s question to PC Thomas. All this police activity, helicopters etc. must cost a lot of money do you file a report on the staffing levels at Pentwyn at the time of the issue?

PC Thomas replied this is not a secure unit here, people cannot physically be restrained and prevented from leaving. From a policing point of view we have a duty to act in regard to Hillcrest Pentwyn, young people are always classed as vulnerable with either a medium or higher level of vulnerability we have to have a balanced response towards the individual’s we are looking for.

The Chairman thanked PC Thomas, who had come here to speak on his rest day.

It was asked if the police filed a report as to the staffing levels at the time of children absconding.

PC Thomas replied that it was not a secure unit.  If someone wanted to make a concerted effort to go then they can go, but the police have a duty to react to any missing person.

Cll Hood recommended that anyone could go onto the website ( hillcrestcare.co.uk ) and look at ‘The statement of purpose’ for Pentwyn.

The Chairman concluded that it had not all been negative.  There was some support in the community, but a withdrawal of the planning application would be a start.  Better integration was needed with the community, which could mean attending the community council monthly meetings.

He then thanked everyone for attending.

The meeting closed at 9.10pm